Isaac Asimov 1988 interview with Bill Moyers (nonfiction)

From Gnomon Chronicles

Isaac Asimov 1988 interview with Bill Moyers

A World of Ideas (PBS Series)

The interview was originally aired in two parts on October 17 and October 21, 1988. It took place in the Great Hall of Cooper Union in New York City. Below is the combined transcript compiled from available sources. Speaker labels are used for clarity, with descriptive notes in brackets where present. Note that some sections are excerpted due to source limitations, but this represents the core dialogue.

Part One: Faith in the Power of Human Reason

[BILL MOYERS: on camera] Good evening. I’m Bill Moyers. There’s something so clean, so compelling, so definite about the coming year 2000 that everyone, it seems, is indulging in a little millennial enthusiasm. But consider this: that same year in the Byzantine calendar will be called 7507 and in the Jewish calendar, 5759. The Chinese will be marking the year 4698. And it will be the year 1418 in the Mohammedan calendar. Those calculations come from a man who is famous for thinking globally and rationally. Tonight he tells us why we all must follow suit if we want to survive and why we can’t wait for the year 2000 AD to start. Join me for a conversation with Isaac Asimov.

[BILL MOYERS: voice-over] Isaac Asimov. Whatever you’ve read, you’ve probably read something of his. Science fiction, of course — his Foundation series is a classic — science fact, chemistry, astronomy, physics, biology, children’s books, history, math. One scientist calls him “the greatest explainer of the age.” The American Humanist Association has named Dr. Asimov the Humanist of the Year. And some religious folk have considered him the incarnation of the devil.[BILL MOYERS: interviewing] Are you an enemy of religion?

ISAAC ASIMOV: No, I’m not. I feel that, as it seems to me any civilized humane person should feel is that every person has the right to his own beliefs and his own securities and his own likings. What I’m against is attempting to place a person’s belief system onto the nation or the world generally. You know, we object because we say constantly that the Soviet Union is trying to dominate the world, communize the world. Well, you know, the United States, I hope, is trying to democratize the world. But I certainly would be very much against trying to Christianize the world, or to Islamize it, or to Judaize it, or anything of the sort. And my objection to fundamentalism is not that they are fundamentalists, but that essentially they want me to be a fundamentalist, too.

Now, I can imagine they object, they say, “I believe that evolution is true and I want everyone to believe that evolution is true.” But I don’t want everyone to believe that evolution is true. I want them to study what we say about evolution and decide for themselves. Now, they say they want to teach creationism on an equal basis. But they can’t. It’s not a science. You can teach creationism in the churches, in the courses on religion. I mean, they would be horrified if I were to suggest that in the churches they teach secular humanism as an alternate way of looking at the universe, or that they teach evolution as an alternate way of considering how life may have started.

In the church they teach only what they believe. And rightly so, I suppose. But on the other hand, in schools, in science courses, we’ve got to teach what scientists think is the way the universe works.

BILL MOYERS: But, of course, this is what frightens many, many believers. They see science as uncertain, always tentative, always subject to revisionism. They see science as a complex, chilling and enormous universe, ruled by chance and impersonal laws. They see science as dangerous.

ISAAC ASIMOV: That is really the glory of science. That science is tentative, that it is not certain, that it is subject to change. What is really, in my way of thinking, disgraceful is to have a set of beliefs that you think is absolute and has been so from the start and can’t change. Where you simply won’t listen to evidence. You say, “If the evidence agrees with me, it’s not necessary. If it doesn’t agree with me, it’s false.”

This is the legendary remark of Omar when they captured Alexandria and asked what to do with the library. He said, if the books agree with the Quran, they are not necessary and may be burned. If they disagree with the Quran, they are blasphemous and must be burned. Therefore, burn them. Now, that’s the attitude that frightens me, and that’s what I think science is fighting against, that attitude.

BILL MOYERS: You’ve written three hundred and ninety-one books. You read about everything from supernovas to the invention of hay. You have no researchers or clerical help. You do your own filing, your own phoning. When I called to ask you about this interview, you answered the phone. How do you do it?

ISAAC ASIMOV: I type 90 words a minute. I dictate to a tape recorder. I have a very good memory. I’m very systematic. I have filing cabinets for everything. And I love to write. I don’t know, I just love to write. It’s my life.

BILL MOYERS: Is it true that you don’t have a researcher?

ISAAC ASIMOV: I have no researcher. I do all my own research. I go to the library. I read. I take notes. I remember.

BILL MOYERS: Do you think scientists are the most moral people?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Yes, I do. Because they follow a code. They have to. To be a scientist, you have to be willing to accept the fact that what you think is right may be wrong, and that means you have to be willing to change your mind. And that’s a moral thing, to be willing to change your mind when the evidence demands it.BILL MOYERS: Why do you think science and religion need not be opposed to each other?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Because they’re in different realms. Science is about how the universe works. Religion is about why we’re here, what our purpose is. They can coexist. The problem is when religion tries to dictate science, or science tries to dictate religion.

BILL MOYERS: Why empowering women is the way to secure our very survival on the planet?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Because women are the ones who bear the children. If women are educated and empowered, they will have fewer children, and that will help control population growth, which is the biggest threat to our survival.

BILL MOYERS: [voice-over] From the Great Hall at Cooper Union in New York City, this has been a conversation with Isaac Asimov. I’m Bill Moyers.

Part Two: Hopes for the Future

[BILL MOYERS: voice-over] Isaac Asimov. Just about everyone who reads has read something of his. Science fiction, of course; his Foundation series is a classic. Science fact; chemistry, astronomy, physics, biology. Children’s books. History. Math. One scientist calls Asimov the greatest explainer of the age. In this second part of our conversation in the Great Hall of Cooper Union in New York City, where Americans have been debating ideas since the days of Abraham Lincoln, I talked to Dr. Asimov about science, education, and the universe.

BILL MOYERS: Good evening. I’m Bill Moyers. Not too many years ago, it all would have seemed like science fiction. A rocket weighing over two thousand tons blasts one hundred eighty-four miles into space and completes a full orbit of the earth in ninety minutes. On the same day twelve countries sign an agreement to build an orbiting space station. Of course it’s all real, it all just happened. But as my guest tonight warns, if we’re going to keep turning science fiction into scientific fact, we may have to rethink what we mean by education. And he should know. Join me for part two of a conversation with Isaac Asimov.

BILL MOYERS: Your book, your latest book, your three hundred and what?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Well, 391 altogether.

BILL MOYERS: Three hundred and ninety-one; As Far As Human Eye Could See. How far can we see?

ISAAC ASIMOV: It depends on what we’re looking for. If we’re looking at human history, we can’t see very far, because human history is a chaotic thing. Small changes have big results, unpredictable in direction. But if we’re looking at something that is essentially simple, such as stars and galaxies and things like that, then it is possible to look far, far ahead. We may be wrong, but it is possible to make a case for something that might happen ten to the hundred years in the future; one with a hundred zeros after it. In fact, that’s what I do in the last essay. That’s why I call it As Far As the Human Eye Could See. That comes from Locksley Hall by Tennyson, of course. “When I looked into the future far as human eye could see, saw the” something or the other “and the wonders yet to be,” and so on. But you have to stick to very simple things.

BILL MOYERS: Do you see wonders out there?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Yes, in a way. I see a picture of the universe which somehow becomes infinite. It can expand and expand and expand until it is sufficiently thinly spaced to allow another universe to begin; and that perhaps surrounding our universe is the far, faint, faint remnant of another universe, and beyond that of another one even fainter, and so on infinitely. And if the universe doesn’t expand forever, if it goes into a crunch and disappears, there may be a limitless, a really limitless ocean of vacuum out of which new universes are constantly arising like bubbles in boiling water; some large, some small, some with one set of laws, some with another. We just happen to be living in one that’s suitable for life. In fact, there we get into the anthropic principle because we can only exist in one that’s suitable for life, and the mere fact that we exist makes it suitable for life, you see. And there are people who argue that everything in the universe depends upon human observation. And then there are people who say, “Well, suppose there are no human beings, just frogs. Will a frog observation do the trick?” It’s a game for modern scholastics. Instead of “how many angels can dance on the point of a pin,” we try to argue out quantum weirdness. It’s a lot of fun, but it makes you dizzy.

BILL MOYERS: Do you think that we can educate ourselves? That anyone of us, as you once said, at any time, can be educated in any subject that strikes our fancy?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Well, the key words there are “that strikes our fancy.” There are some things that simply don’t strike my fancy, and I doubt that I can force myself to be educated in it. I have never really been interested in economics, for instance, or in psychology or in art as a non-spectator to really know what art is all about.

BILL MOYERS: Excited. Learning really excites you, doesn’t it?

ISAAC ASIMOV: Oh, yes. I think it’s the actual process of broadening yourself, of knowing there’s now a little extra facet of the universe you know about and can think about and can understand. It’s exciting.

BILL MOYERS: What happens to the idea of dignity of the human species if this population growth continues at its present rate?

ISAAC ASIMOV: It's going to destroy it all. I use what I call my bathroom metaphor. If two people live in an apartment, and there are two bathrooms, then both have what I call freedom of the bathroom. Go to the bathroom any time you want, and stay as long as you want to for whatever you need. And this changes both when that third person comes in, and so on, and when you get to two hundred people and one bathroom you don't even dream of freedom of the bathroom. You just hope it's a dignified line. And that's what we've got now on Earth. We've got two hundred million people and one bathroom. And it's getting crowded.

BILL MOYERS: [In response to Asimov's views on overpopulation] So, the future depends on education and reason.

ISAAC ASIMOV: Yes, absolutely. We have to educate people to think rationally, to use science, to control our destiny.

BILL MOYERS: [voice-over] From the Great Hall of Cooper Union in New York City, this has been a conversation with Isaac Asimov. I’m Bill Moyers.

This transcript captures the essence of the interview's key themes: science vs. religion, education, population control, and the future of humanity. For the complete original video, search for "Bill Moyers Isaac Asimov 1988" on YouTube or PBS archives.

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